Mom's doctor revoked her license, but she is so independent and stubborn she won't listen to anyone. What can be done?

mickimcmurray - ahhhh, were it that simple for all of us! I am so glad for you that you had a doctor advocate. So many do not want to get involved (on one hand it is understandable because their patient will likely be very angry with them, but on the other...) We tried but the most he would do was tell her she should not be driving and I believe he might have sent a letter to HER saying the same thing. However, with the early dementia we forget AND she was adamant that she was fine, independent, etc etc.
I like the method though - anyone else out there, if you have a doctor willing to go to bat for you, remember mickimcmurray's options for mom - then mom gets to decide, sort of.. :-)

My friends both got notices at different times telling them they needed to come in for testing in order to maintain their licenses. A cousin of the wife wrote to the DMV because they only respond to family members or doctors. The husband's eye doctor alerted the DMV about him--not because anything was wrong with his eyes, but because of his dementia. In Minnesota, before you can be tested, you have to have an O.K. from your doctor. The doctors would not o.k. the wife and said the husband needed further evaluation. The DMV told me they didn't do evaluation, but Courage Center did. I arranged for that and took him there. It was a 3 hour process, including an hour behind the wheel. They would not recommend him for testing, so his license was revoked too.
But they still kept driving. At that point, I was taking them grocery shopping and to their appointments as their POA, and finally called Adult Protective Services as related above.
If such an evaluation place exists near you, perhaps you could use it for your mom just to reassure everyone she is still capable. And when they show her she isn't, then it becomes clearer that she should give it up.

@MaryKathleen. We actually sold the car to my sister and placed the money in mom's checking account to go towards her caregiving home. I have Power of Attorney. For further details, mom did a "hit and run" with a parked car. I could never locate the car she hit for I wanted to help with the damage. But she came home with a buckled hood and bent front bumper. She hit the car so hard that's how the hood buckled. So, in a nutshell, she committed a crime.

I was able to alert the Dr. that we felt Mom needed to stop driving. I attended the appointment with her and when the Dr. asked about accidents Mom said there were none. I piped right up and reminded her that she hit someone that had stopped to make a left turn and had driven off from the gas station with the hose still in her car. Dr. did a mini-cog and then asked her why she felt the need to drive when most of the week her sister was with her and I was there on the weekends. She was only alone Sunday evening to noon on Monday and Friday afternoon to Saturday at noon. If we had removed the car or taken the keys without her turning them over she would have called the police. I also had a advocate in an older cousin who's opinion she valued.

Short answer is that I live in another state, and she lives in her home of 35 years. My brother has permanently camped out there with his wife, and they provide no care.

Oh Pattiesad, I'm sorry thou are having trouble with this. You may just have to wait until she has an accident like my MIL. I know that's a horrible feeling too!

When i was up there, i tried everything: disconnecting battery, starter, tried to alert dispatch to have her pulled over when she was on the freeway, had cop go to her house...
And yes, her license is definitely revoked! Ahem, at least IT WAS! At one point i called the DMV in Oregon, and they said IT WAS REINSTATED! She didnt know that, and it wasnt supposed to be! I think they have finally corrected their mistake and its revoked again, but she still drives!
I appreciate ALL of your responses and the variety of suggestions, and will try some that i learned here.
In the meanrime, does anyone else think we need legislation to address this issue??

What would that legislation look like. It is already illegal to drive without a valid licence and without insurance. Do you want legislation that would make you turn over your keys? I'm not sure that would work.

It does not sound like she can be reasoned with. Is this stubbornness or dementia?

Mother of Pearl! She was driving on the freeway? No wonder you are desperate. Did you try twisting the steering wheel ? That makes the steering wheel lock so when she puts the key in it , it will start but you can't unlocked the wheel until you turn it back and forth both ways real hard. This works on newer models. My husband did this once in his mom's car.

Like the advice below- take away her car keys. I had to take my dad's keys away. He has dementia and was taking Xanax. He didn't take it well, but I cringe when I think about what could have happened if he hurt someone or himself behind the wheel.

If she has an accident with someone being seriously injured or killed, there will be a major law suit to follow. Someone needs to take control for her own and others protection. This is the time to stop trying to reason and just take over. I wonder if family members can possibly be held liable for having such knowledge about her licence and insurance, but not keeping her off the road? This may be particularly true of someone who is POA.

Has she been evaluated for being competent?

As i said, i live in another state. It was during my last visit that i was in my car ahead of her as she was leaving church, and i tried to hold her car off from leaving, and entering the freeway, as i called for police to stop her. They didnt seem to care. Eventually, i was able to get an officer to go to her home. He said he talked to her, but that was all he can do.
Its ridiculous! Why was i not with her at her home? My degenerate brother had once again moved himself in, and aftter my stern warning about 'needing to step up, or step out ', he had ME arrested on bogus charges that resulted in me not even being able to have contact with MY MOM OR HER HOUSE! Its incredible that in acting responsibly, its my irresponsible brother who has been taken at face value for his lies about me- starting with lies about me being schizophrenic. I have never been given an opportunity to counter any of that with the police or the courts!
So, please, dont think i havent tried everything, when i was there, and still in my home state.
I am not the POA. That is my sister in yet another state, who just acts like 'oh well'.
I seripusly think its time for legislation to help with this exact kind of problem! It breaks my heart to hear the commenters who have had to wait intil an accident forced the demented driver to stop.
Yes, it was her doc who wrote the DMV. Yes, it was the DMV who reviewed and revoked her license. What good is that if NO ONE in society is able to stop her, even without insurance!
I know many people who have had their licensed revoked because they owe child support!! And people who have been arrested, jailed and had licenses revoked because they drove without insurance or current registration, or valid license! They now have criminal records, are on probation, etc.
And yet, "well, we cant go around taking away someones rights, unless there is probable cause to stop them"! Give me a break! Informing law enforcement that she:
1. Has a revoked license due to dementia, and
2. Has no insurance.
What more PROBABLE CAUSE IS NEEDED???

Did the police explain why they would not act despite the revoked license (which they can check quickly) and no insurance (which they can also check)? Have you tried getting other people in the town to complain of the danger to the police, write to the DMV, etc. etc. That is what a friend had to do. She made it a broad problem, not just her concern. Got mom off the road.

This is part of what I do for a living, cognitive testing for drivers evaluations on patients. It is often filled with anger from patients who are not mentally fit to be on the road, denial, and that stubbornness. The doctor I work for revoked my grandmothers license a few years before I started working for him. She hates him to this day. People will come up with every excuse they can think of. The family has to be almost forceful at times in preventing the patient from driving. Reinforce the risk she is placing on others. She wouldn't want to hurt an innocent child, or even adult. Take the keys, the car, whatever you are capable of doing. Get police assistance. If possible, a cop, perhaps a friend who is a cop can make a 'visit' to actually take her license from her. That official visit might make everything real to her. I wish you luck, it is always a difficult situation.

Pattiesad:

Obviously your sister (POA) is not going to be of any help.

You have tried the police, and they were of no help. As I mentioned before, because they did not 'catch her in the act', there is not a whole lot they can do. At that point it is your word against hers and if she denied driving...

Your brother sounds like a REAL jerk! When you say "I have never been given an opportunity to counter any of that with the police or the courts!" what exactly transpired? If you were charged with something, it is your right to have your "day in court". If all they did was file a restraining order, you STILL should have your say in court.

Legislation? What exactly can be done in addition to what is already on the 'books'? If her license was revoked and she has no insurance, she is driving illegally - no additional laws will help that. The problem with all this is that those in charge can question rights and motives for revoking licenses - so, the question here is has she been formally tested and documented as being incompetent? Do you have access to that information? I believe in one of your comments you mentioned that the revoke of her license was reversed (and then reinstated?) - so WHO facilitated that? Your brother perhaps? Although there is no specific 'law' that can be invoked to stop her from driving if the adults in her life are not responsible AND she is not 'caught in the act', there ARE laws that you can use (see below).

Hopefully you have documented everything that you can. As someone else mentioned, if there is an accident, lawyers can and will go after whoever they can, so you must FIRST attempt to protect yourself from being a party to all that if the worst happens. Once you have documentation to prove that you have made multiple attempts to stop her and have been thwarted by your brother (and sis), you should be "safe", however they can still attempt to drag you into any lawsuit that is filed.

I would also write letters to the DMV and the local police, sending it with Return Receipt so that you have signature proof that you attempted to put a stop to this. Stick to the facts - license is revoked, no insurance, incompetent, but still driving - in those letters. Provide details such as her name, address, license number, registration number. DO NOT make it a personal issue (aka for now leave bro and sis OUT of the discussion) or they may dismiss it as family issues. Your dopey brother, especially since he is living with her, should also be made aware of the fact that HE can be sued as well if she causes a major accident (from what you have said about him, he probably will just ignore you.) Taking the laissez faire attitude will bite him in the end if something happens (and possibly sis as well, since SHE is the POA - I would mention this to her.)

At this point, IF mom has been DECLARED incompetent, the best you can do is ASAP find an Elder Care Attorney and file for guardianship and stewardship. Most likely you will need an Atty who practices in her state, but if you live in an abutting state you might find one who is licensed in both states. IF mom has any assets and IF the courts approve everything, you should be able to get reimbursement for the costs (first visit with EC Atty should be a free consult, so be sure to have ALL your questions ready for that appointment, including how ALL the costs will be handled). It won't be easy, it won't be cheap and it will take time (perhaps the Atty could get some kind of temporary orders issued, pursuant to protecting your mom and the general public). If you lose the petition, you will have to pay out of pocket for your attorney. Be sure to discuss this in detail with the Atty at the consultation.

The worst part of going this route (besides the cost and time) is that mom and/or your brother (possibly even your sister) could fight this. If mom contests, the courts will order that she be represented by an attorney as well. This will have to be paid from her assets as well. Multiple 'experts' can be called in to examine mom for determination of her capabilities, also being paid for by mom. If your brother resists and tries to bring up all that crap about you, be prepared for getting dragged through the mud! I would also ask the Atty if there is any chance that YOU would have to pay any of these additional court costs if you lose your case... Be Prepared!

IF your petition is approved, you would be in charge (this assignment overrides the POA) and can make decisions, including taking/selling the car, where she will live and have control over her assets. You will have to keep good records as you will be required to make regular reports to the court to satisfy them that you are doing everything in her best interest.

A lot of the above will depend on her level of competence. If it cannot be proved that she is a danger to herself and others, this will all be for naught. If she can be proved incompetent, but you do not want guardianship, you could still petition the courts and have an unrelated guardian appointed - this takes a lot off your shoulders, however you would have no control or oversight in any decisions made (and her assets would then be under the courts control.) Potentially the courts could assign (if you did not want the 'job') one of your siblings as well, so be prepared to fight that as well. Obviously the current situation proves that they would NOT be the right choice for these tasks!

I do not envy you with your dilemmas and hope that you can find a solution before it is too late. First and foremost, document everything so that you can protect yourself from any fallout, then find that EC Atty and see what can be done.

Disgustedtoo-- you get it!! And thank you. Reading each of these posts is barely tolerable because of the horror and pain I've gone through with each of these points, as i was severely depressed and traumatized, and as i was --well thought I was leaving Oregon, ready to move to New Mexico (not adjacent), i was already considering an intensive residential level treatment. I was hanging on by a thread then!! I can't even talk now, its triggers too much pain, but well I, that's when my bro called 911, claiming i destroyed his car n garage--my moms...all i can think is it had to be the "schizophrenic" comment, which he's evil like that, knowing its a total lie.. but i wasn't expecting to relive the same trauma again of police--no real questions, kinda mocked my answers, then pulled me out of my locked car thru the window, face down on ground as i screamed and my mom wept.
No, everything you thought you could trust because there are "laws"? Its nothing like that, and i had to live in my car waiting month after month NEVER GOT TO SPEAK! TO THIS DAY!
NO, sister won't believe about being sued, is weak and coward, bro has always been a mooch, cant be sued for as I, and i think moved in waiting for the house.
Yes, i have names from Atty of will, etc. Im sorry, im just stabilizing myself on my depression after ..sounds like im blaming, but this year "trying to find a safe space to heal"?? New Mexico mental health ...added more layers of retrauma, victimization, misdiagnosis, it may has well been my brother i went to see for help here!! That's my fight- accountability for what their incompetence forced me to suffer more!!!
Um, the cop: why he didn't take her license? He cant. All, DMV, too, say "nothing he can do without probable cause to pull her over"!!
I have so much rage about what they've done to me, and what THEY WON'T F $$#KING do for her or him!!
And they rub it in about how our rights to be free are so sacred!! I got tickets for suspended 'license while i was having to live in my car there! I would say: i don't HAVE an Oregon License because I DONT LIVE HERE!! I lost my NM license after this started (CHAOS AND SHOCK AND FEAR, I cant imagine!), but BUT. it was still valid for a few more months-- hoping i would be back to NM by then... It didn't matter, and i wasnt.. I checked into a hospital as soon as i got to NM, but a year later, OR has a hold on me getting my Drivers license renewed in NM. I am at such risk.... And have never lived like this--no DL?? And waited to look for a house to rent till after hospital, so im stigmatized as homeless, suocidal,.psychotic, ...PARANOID!! im not paranoid, i have real reasons to be terrified!!
I have to turn this... I've paid way too high of a price 4 way too long, and after16 months, im seeing the dawns light ..and hope that this might actually be a new day coming. My hope for the possibility of .. of life, not terror.. Im starting to open my door a little, and I'm sorry its my hope and i can't do more, and that hurts so much
But i will
I will . Im getting somewhere i hope
Lol, anger and revenge can be the only thing that keeps you going sometimes, haha!
Im like: oh im not dying like this, so they can read all these lies, talk bad, blame me, oh hell no!!  My mom will be 91 October 19th!  
I will be able to step up for her when strong.
The good news:  she's not a 'horrible' driver. Yet.., but yes, she's been tested, evaluated, deemed not competent to drive by DMV.  How many times have I said: "mother!  Just because you pretend you've got your REVOKED license, and also have no insurance??
She repeats "listen, I've been driving since i was 15, and i would know i wasn't ok to drive, and then i wouldnt!"
Oh right, cuz ur the QUEEN of da nile!"  Think about if u got in an accident that wasn't your fault, woman!  And someone got hurt!!  You would be in prison!!!
She's blocking it all out.  I have HAD to stop caring for now..  please try to understand..

Thank you all for meeting me talk..

Why did the police drag you out through the window of your car and put you face down on the ground?

I think you just need to let all of this go about your mom and driving for you can't control or fix her and just take care of yourself at this point.

Due process of law affords people the opportunity to present their case in court, so, I"m not sure why you were restricted by the courts without an opportunity to present your case. I'd seek legal advice.

Pattiesad,

How much longer will it be before you can renew your DL's there in New Mexico?

Are you still living homeless in your car that you legally can't drive?

What meds are you on for your mental health issues?

How are you surviving financially in all of this?

Oh God bless you all! The complete absence of due process?
It sounds like im leaving something out that would explain it, right? Unfortunately no. I have NO idea! The public defender just looked at me, through me, when i would ask pointed questions, like "how long?" Why have i not been able to plead not guilty? "How long will I have to keep waiting??
I felt like they were all just waiting for me to take the deal, and plead guilty!! Not a chance!! There was a point where we transfered to the next court, he said, because its a trial court.. THEN, I wasnt even allowed in!! I would wait in the hall bout 8 momutes for pd, judge and prosecutor!! Then another date!! Please dont think bad of me, but after a year i just drove to NM!! Still a fugitive up there!!

CMagnum: this is why my original q was so generic. I'm pretty firm about things like my mom driving, not concerned about her approval, but yes, my hands are tied.
But now you see why i know exactly the status of her license, because I've had to deal with about mine!!
Oregon wants the money for the $700 or so suspended license ticket, that continues to increase, along with all the other ridiculous chain of outrageous fines for --many things that i did not even know about (and aren't valid) why? Because as a summer visitor, i my mail goes to my ! No contact! My brother loved knowing how to terrify me with his sudden appearance, threats, "callin the cops, callin the cops"! Sends me into panic now!
In fact, i have end. Im kinda losing my center here now thank you

Since you aren't allowed to go to your mother's house and you can't drive without a current licence plus other problems, it sounds like you first need to take care of yourself.

Can the police go to the house for you and get your mail? Can friends back home in Oregon that can help you somehow? Are there other relatives that could help you?

Does anyone have POA??

Take the keys.

I think the OP said her sister is POA, but she evidently does not care about this. Also, she can't just take the keys for Pattiesad has been legally banned from her mother's home due to her mean brother and Pattiesad can't drive her car there also due to having an expired driver's licence.

Cmagnum- sorry yesterday, I hit a stop point yesterday, going into panic and other overload as I was writing about "the ugliest traumas", which are still unresolved, and which ive never really been allowed, or at least given the interest, or time or space to talk about them.  (i learned the NP considered my stories "DELUSIONS".   ... the last several years have been like this: exasperating, convoluted, and it's difficult to limit the details, without going into the other factors, and, well, I haven't had anyone who was really interested in hearing it...so I kind of wash over it all knowing I'm all alone with this.
So, I'm very thankful for your comments and questions.
The positive side, I guess is I did get out of Oregon!  Which (being there is the ONLY REASON i was ever homeless--i just did not live there!)- and I had no sooner packed up my Oregon trailer in storage 2 days before, when my brother had me arrested!  Oregon, acch!
My precious dog was killed there, I had to leave my 2 cats (8 and 17!) at my moms...and I still mourn them all, and feel nothing but emptiness, and I grieve the endless losses of my reputation, my life, my future..
I just drove away out of Oregon on April 13, 2016.. Got to Las Cruces about a week later, and admitted myself to a psych inpatient hospital.
Brief;
It was another horrible disappointment, another betrayal and scam that caused more problems. 7 or 8 different inappropriate meds, at high doses.  No therapy, no aftercare or follow up..  They just created a huge mess for me that I'm still reeling from.. That was a big blow because I'd researched I that hospital while in my car in Oregon, (-PTSD program!-no such thing!  We were just warehoused!)  
Sigh... I  just envisioned a fresh start where I could just find some quiet, and time to stop!, regain some peace and guidance through aftercare..  but .no, no, oh no, unbelievable incompetence and arrogance, and --scam...
Financially,  I have SSDI, and Long term Dis from working at the UofA, so I'm blessed not to have that worry. 
Meds: took Paxil successfully for years for my depression, and Trazodone still for 'quality rested sleep', but I think from 2012 to 2016 was filled with so much ongoing horror, I'm not sure if anything could have helped!
--its unbearable looking back on every single incident, As the Dominos were falling always right in front of me -- the loneliness of such unnecessary cruelty --I would work hard on one thing- just to have it taken away, like selling the Arizona trailer I lived in to my landlord before I even went to Oregon that last summer, (where I kept my other Oregon trailer in storage):  I never received a penny from that guy!  He knew I wasn't coming back-$5000!!!
and i couldn't get out of having wrist surgery. And PT in Oregon, (after I fell out of a tree in  AZ, and the Yuma  docs overlooked it (ems splint still on)- and discharged me that way from  the hospital after 5 days! in 2013.  THEN THEY  COVERED IT UP with fake xrays)-! But, ughh. I missed the 2 year deadline for malpractice in AZ because I couldn't leave Oregon..
Before I left for Cruces, the Oregon RV Storage lady said "she didn't like me coming in ther so much-gave me (not legal) 10 day notice to move it... I'd been in there each day, by myself, trying to make it packed solid if I had to sell it, or have it towed out of state by someone??  -because i knew it was over for me. I would never be back in Oregon.  I was just breathing, nothing more.  I would have had to hire someone just to have it towed to some new RV storage across town! I wasn't capable! I knew no one!  Money and sanity were going fast!   I think I got on the freeway 2 days later..
When I called her 28 days or so, after the hospital, later from nm, I was a month behind ($35) because she refused to accept it!  Or to let me keep it there, even after I was in nm---anda couple weeks later, she just gave my $8000 travel trailer to a tow truck company in Salem.  I can't let that go, and have 2 years to file a lawsuit against her, but ...i am in NM!  I have to get an Oregon atty to file!!! Its beyond overwhelming....Nothing but pain was all I saw everywhere, no matter how hard i I tried, and here they kept making it worse..
But meds: effexor has finally been starting to ease that black consuming hole of depression god, 2-3 years of constant crying, agony in the pit of my stomache, couldn't eat, AND no one ever let me talk about the facts and reality of what I've been through!!  This is New Mexico, now! Blame for not ' 'complying'---with the WRONG meds! FOR WRONG diagnosis, and police,  2times random came in a room, or to my house, with an order to force me to go in their custody to ER! For an emergency mental health evaluation!!  Never saw anyone from pschiatry, or mental health.??  mistreated by the hospital, police forced me to give my dog to someone- or Animal Control!,  nurses threatening to cut my clothes off, humiliated, forced to strip down, inject me with meds "against my will to consent". No petition sent to a judge to request "emergency medication" while I refused, as required by law!. There was nothing wrong with me!  Nothing different, no suicide, -just more fear, from their abuse, loss of decision-making, another layer of trauma to take with me  Two days later! 

This time I finally got my records, and was even more,  again shattered! None ever disclosed to me their layers of misdiagnoses, the false information , random assumptions, that I never knew about, so I could not correct.. , passed on to next NURSE practioner -- and she jus copies the !!! And details!!  So, now I have enough docu entationaround town about me to be convinced of their lies.  Because in this region, these NURSE PRACTIONERS HAVE NO MH required TRAINING, and operate independently with the same power and authority as a trained Medical Board Certified Psychiatrist! 
......I can't believe how much I've told you here,  I'm embarrassed to go on and on, but it's all so real, and unresolved!
But now, at least, , I have a prescribing Psychologist as my therapist and prescriber, and he's all right. The healing with him... is in the time hes had to get get to know me over the months.  I lost last that, living in Pergatory in Oregon.  That has allowed him to see and know more about me. To others, they've given me 15 min to tell my life story...  Then call me manic!  In their eyes, (the "professionals", huh, I've been nothing more than a "paranoid, delusional, psychotic homeless person".   I feel like they've erased me, and now that's All I will be in their records...
All they wanted was my complance, not relief, not wellness that would allow me to rebuild all the pieces of me each one has broken, stolen, blamed, denied...wow again..
 The brightness is in the last month.   I've just found the DOOR to 'my people' in a CITY run 15 week "Neighborhood Leadership Acadamy"! We are the first-ever participants, and I'm finally allowed to be me, to be heard, to offer the contributions I've worked my whole life to be part of, and I'm like a sponge, absorbing it and the wonderful people , and breathing in LIFE for the first-ever time in years!!  Thanks