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Can't tell them anything, can't take away their license unless the law is probably involved. In their decline, what can we, as their adult children, do?
Can you tell me a bit more why your parent would need their license removed?
I think in decline or at any other time there is little you can do for a person with this disorder if they do not wish to have help.
I see often, on AC, family members describing a parent as being narcissistic. I am wondering if this person has seen someone and been diagnosed?
I would also like to suggest a memoir by Liz Scheier called Never Simple. Ms. S's mom had mental issues, and Ms. S. tried to address them in the last decades of her mom's life with little success. It has a lot to teach.
I completely agree Alva - there is most definitely a huge difference between a true narcissist (diagnosed or not - because I would imagine getting a diagnosis for a good % of them is hit or miss because they are reticent to admit there is a problem...at least with them - but I do understand what you mean) is VERY different from someone who is just generically selfish or self-focused. I agree that attributing narcissism to just about anyone is very common.
I will admit - my FIL is not diagnosed. But I am convinced without a shadow of a doubt that if he saw a psychiatrist - they wouldn't hesitate to apply that diagnosis to him. Not just on the surface. But from the bottom up - from the creation of the narcissist as a child by his mother, father and grandmother (and the confusion caused in the Jesus/Saviour complex by his mother and grandmother and the juxtaposition of his own father's hatred for him and constant assurances that he was worthless, and his complete lack of self-esteem to this day, and how he is able to mask it) to the teenage years when his mother put him on a pedestal and his grandmother jacked it up so high and reinforced it by telling his sisters - in front of him that in the absence of herself or their mother - that they were to SERVE him if he needed anything at all. To MIL marrying HIM over her existing beau who was very sought after (as was she) simply because he asked. He saw this as a triumph, not realizing that she simply wanted to get married and her boyfriend did not. And he asked. MIL perpetuated the narcissism by becoming both his mother and father archetypes in adulthood - by alternately serving him and continuing to destroy his self-esteem as a way to keep him in line.
His children came along and he sought to control them - because he had no control elsewhere. He was brutal. Abusive physically, mentally, verbally, and emotionally. He played them against each other. He made each think the other was the Golden Child and that they were the Scapegoat. They were both the Scapegoat. He taught them that THEY had to sacrifice to ensure that HIS needs were met from a young age. And that only appearances mattered. Only HE mattered. That their accomplishments only mattered in how they reflected on HIM.
He was NEVER proud of them. I have NEVER heard him say that he was proud. I have heard them say they love him. I have never heard him say it back. But I have heard him say it to other people outside of the family.
His grands came along - and he wanted NOTHING to do with the girls. WOMEN - are worthless - unless they are in servitude. TO him. If they are serving someone else they are not worth his time. His grandson gets slightly more attention - but that's not saying much. The grands have all cut him out, barely sparing time to speak to him.
He will reminisce about people that did him wrong 50,60,70 years ago. ONCE. That are dead. He will buy something he doesn't need. Because other's have it...or don't. Just for bragging rights.
He LIES constantly. If he is speaking - you can almost bet he is lying. But to him...he isn't lying. It is his truth. But dear god in heaven. don't ever point it out. That is the ultimate sin. He will lie about anything or anyone. No one is off limits. Including himself! Especially himself. The better it makes him sound...
If you pulled up a checklist for a narcissist - he literally checks EVERY SINGLE BOX.
I don't throw around terms like that lightly. I can honestly say I have only ever known one person in my entire life that I think is a true narcissist. Anyone else I think maybe they are selfish, or as they age has become more self-focused. But narcissist - no he is the only one I have ever given that distinction! I genuinely believe he has the actual personality disorder.
You do not mention dementia or other medical condition other than "age related decline" vision problems and anxiety. What can you do?....You do nothing. Unfortunately often there has to be an event that occurs that will "force" some action. If mom is driving on an invalid license (or no license) and she gets stopped that is on her and she will have to appear in court. Hopefully the reason for the stop is not an accident where she hurts herself or others. (and given the narcissism if you / sister mentions this possibility she would not care) Depending on what your sister is doing as far as caring for mom she might want to back off on that as well. The more "help" mom gets the more "independent" she thinks she is. If she does not get the help she has been getting how "independent" is she really?
And..You support your sister when she needs it. Your mental health is important and you can not risk that by getting involved with the woman that bore you.
"Now aging and increasingly abusive mother is affecting my sister who feels responsible for her. I have been no contact with mom for past 4 years, and sis has been looking after mom more and more."
Why is your sister doing this? The other children (how many others are there?) are keeping their distance, including you.
"I got triggered by hearing all the latest, and need to protect my fragile mental health while also supporting my sister and dealing with some guilt around my unwillingness to expose myself to the abuse. My hope is that mom isn’t left alone in her final years if sis decides to stop or can no longer care for her. As of now mom is still quite independent and otherwise healthy."
So your sister is the only one who hasn't managed to step away from your mother? Does she call all the sibs, or only you?
As long as your mother is deemed to be mentally competent, there is nothing anyone can do. Your sister is enabling her in her foolishness. Does this sister live near her now? Is she planning to facilitate the move your mother wants to make?
Are you sure your mother actually cut all of the sibs out of her will? If so, then none of you should have anything further to do with her.
Narcissism, for the number of times we see people diagnosing it in their family members, must be present in about one half the population. I recall a therapist telling me that you can divide the entire world into two lines. Line one is for those who believe they are responsible for EVERYTHING and line two is for those who believe they are responsible for NOTHING.
Truth is that we can do very little to, for, or about ANYONE else unless we are the POA and the other person is diagnosed as incompetent. And even then it is difficult.
And yes, in order to take the license from someone the law needs to be involved.
I wish you good luck with a rational conversation here with your elder.
After reading your profile, it seems your first priority is protecting yourself. You’ve made huge strides in your well being, don’t lose that. In this situation, you’re like many here, “waiting for the fall” Your mother cannot be reasoned with or forced into anything. Therefore her family waits until an event happens that forces change. It will happens, just can’t tell when and can’t protect her from her bad choices in the meantime. Don’t participate in her negativity or bad decisions. When the event happens you’ll be able, along with your sister, to make good decisions for your mother’s care. I wish you peace
It amazes me that those on this forum who have Narcissistic parents and have walked away still have compassion for them. I know, I probably would do but they are so Toxic. I think its the way their brains are wired. They really don't see where they are the problem.
Mom is 89 and wants to move. Tell sis to let her do whatever she wants but sis is not going help her. That means Mom gets the realtor, she finds herself a new house and she packs up and finds someone to move her.
What you and sis need to realize is at 89 Mom needs you more than you need her. As adults you do not need to put up with her abuse. You can hang up, walk away. There needs to be mutual respect and there won't be until you stand up to her. You do nothing you don't want to do. What is she going to do to you.
Read your profile . You should not feel guilt for not wanting to expose yourself to abuse. Sounds as if your sister needs a break from your mother as well.
Let your mother fend for herself. A very wise social worker told me sometimes you have to "let them fail". Many of us have had to do just that and when an emergency arises let the authorities, doctors etc handle it.
Given your history, If I was you I would not be POA for your mother either. Let the county/state whomever become your mother's guardian when the time comes.
As far as your sister. You should encourage her to seek respite from this situation , either temporarily or permanently as needed.
Dealing with a narcissistic parent is a fresh hell for certain. Dealing with a narcissistic parent (or parent-in-law in my case LOL) as a caregiver is indescribable.
You are right - you can't tell them anything. There is little that you can do. At least in regards to them. You can change what you do. You can remove yourself from the situation as much as you are comfortable with. You can at the very least - mentally protect yourself.
IF they are mentally competent - outside of the narcissism - there is very little that you can do. And believe me - the narcissism can seriously mimic mental capacity issues - because if they are true narcissists - that is a Cluster B personality disorder on the DSM-5 - it actually IS on some level about compromised components of capacity. Just not in the way we normally think about capacity.
They don't have compromised memory - but they DO live in a different reality - and will change the narrative to fit their needs and will "remember" things differently than you do.
They don't have compromised decision making capacity. But they will make very poor choices in order to get their needs met and get things what they want. And it will often appear as if their capacity to make choices is seriously compromised because they don't seem to consider the consequences.
They don't have compromised ability to discern between fact and fiction. They KNOW what is real and what is not. They do not hallucinate. But they do have delusions. Typically of grandeur. But if they are covert - they have other types of delusions. and they don't live in our reality. They live in one of their own creation.
So it is VERY easy - especially when narcissists age - to confuse the narcissism for dementia. And not be able to tell the difference. And wonder about their capacity. And it is even worse when they have dementia AND narcissism.
As long as they have capacity - they are allowed to make whatever stupid choices they want. Just like the rest of us. Unfortunately a lot of their stupid choices are way up there on the scale because they don't ever consider how their choices impact anyone else. Because no one else matters!
My best advice. Pick your battles.
On the license issue. You are going to run into a brick wall with them. They are NEVER going to believe they should stop. My FIL literally cannot walk, see, hear, can barely even move his arms anymore, can barely even get in the car, and when he does he needs help getting in and someone to put his seatbelt on. But he still thinks he can drive (he doesn't by the way)
You don't mention why you think they should stop driving. Are they having accidents? Driving erratically? Why do you think they should stop driving? If they are a danger - a genuine danger - there are ways to anonymously get involved via the Department of Motor Vehicles and their primary care doctor. There are ways you can disable their vehicle. But none of these should be done if they aren't really causing any real problems and you just think they are too old to drive.
You answered your own question with your first line. “You can’t tell them anything.”
None of us have the power within us to change anyone else’s behavior.
It’s frustrating to be in a situation like this. I’m sorry that you have an unreasonable mother.
Hey, consider yourself lucky that you live across the country from your mom. Good for you! Your sister is the one dealing with it. Please share this site with her. I’m sure that she would love to vent about your mom for a bit.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
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APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
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APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
I think in decline or at any other time there is little you can do for a person with this disorder if they do not wish to have help.
I see often, on AC, family members describing a parent as being narcissistic. I am wondering if this person has seen someone and been diagnosed?
I would also like to suggest a memoir by Liz Scheier called Never Simple. Ms. S's mom had mental issues, and Ms. S. tried to address them in the last decades of her mom's life with little success. It has a lot to teach.
I will admit - my FIL is not diagnosed. But I am convinced without a shadow of a doubt that if he saw a psychiatrist - they wouldn't hesitate to apply that diagnosis to him. Not just on the surface. But from the bottom up - from the creation of the narcissist as a child by his mother, father and grandmother (and the confusion caused in the Jesus/Saviour complex by his mother and grandmother and the juxtaposition of his own father's hatred for him and constant assurances that he was worthless, and his complete lack of self-esteem to this day, and how he is able to mask it) to the teenage years when his mother put him on a pedestal and his grandmother jacked it up so high and reinforced it by telling his sisters - in front of him that in the absence of herself or their mother - that they were to SERVE him if he needed anything at all. To MIL marrying HIM over her existing beau who was very sought after (as was she) simply because he asked. He saw this as a triumph, not realizing that she simply wanted to get married and her boyfriend did not. And he asked. MIL perpetuated the narcissism by becoming both his mother and father archetypes in adulthood - by alternately serving him and continuing to destroy his self-esteem as a way to keep him in line.
His children came along and he sought to control them - because he had no control elsewhere. He was brutal. Abusive physically, mentally, verbally, and emotionally. He played them against each other. He made each think the other was the Golden Child and that they were the Scapegoat. They were both the Scapegoat. He taught them that THEY had to sacrifice to ensure that HIS needs were met from a young age. And that only appearances mattered. Only HE mattered. That their accomplishments only mattered in how they reflected on HIM.
He was NEVER proud of them. I have NEVER heard him say that he was proud. I have heard them say they love him. I have never heard him say it back. But I have heard him say it to other people outside of the family.
His grands came along - and he wanted NOTHING to do with the girls. WOMEN - are worthless - unless they are in servitude. TO him. If they are serving someone else they are not worth his time. His grandson gets slightly more attention - but that's not saying much. The grands have all cut him out, barely sparing time to speak to him.
He will reminisce about people that did him wrong 50,60,70 years ago. ONCE. That are dead. He will buy something he doesn't need. Because other's have it...or don't. Just for bragging rights.
He LIES constantly. If he is speaking - you can almost bet he is lying. But to him...he isn't lying. It is his truth. But dear god in heaven. don't ever point it out. That is the ultimate sin. He will lie about anything or anyone. No one is off limits. Including himself! Especially himself. The better it makes him sound...
If you pulled up a checklist for a narcissist - he literally checks EVERY SINGLE BOX.
I don't throw around terms like that lightly. I can honestly say I have only ever known one person in my entire life that I think is a true narcissist. Anyone else I think maybe they are selfish, or as they age has become more self-focused. But narcissist - no he is the only one I have ever given that distinction! I genuinely believe he has the actual personality disorder.
What can you do?....You do nothing.
Unfortunately often there has to be an event that occurs that will "force" some action.
If mom is driving on an invalid license (or no license) and she gets stopped that is on her and she will have to appear in court. Hopefully the reason for the stop is not an accident where she hurts herself or others. (and given the narcissism if you / sister mentions this possibility she would not care)
Depending on what your sister is doing as far as caring for mom she might want to back off on that as well.
The more "help" mom gets the more "independent" she thinks she is. If she does not get the help she has been getting how "independent" is she really?
And..You support your sister when she needs it. Your mental health is important and you can not risk that by getting involved with the woman that bore you.
"Now aging and increasingly abusive mother is affecting my sister who feels responsible for her. I have been no contact with mom for past 4 years, and sis has been looking after mom more and more."
Why is your sister doing this? The other children (how many others are there?) are keeping their distance, including you.
"I got triggered by hearing all the latest, and need to protect my fragile mental health while also supporting my sister and dealing with some guilt around my unwillingness to expose myself to the abuse. My hope is that mom isn’t left alone in her final years if sis decides to stop or can no longer care for her. As of now mom is still quite independent and otherwise healthy."
So your sister is the only one who hasn't managed to step away from your mother? Does she call all the sibs, or only you?
As long as your mother is deemed to be mentally competent, there is nothing anyone can do. Your sister is enabling her in her foolishness. Does this sister live near her now? Is she planning to facilitate the move your mother wants to make?
Are you sure your mother actually cut all of the sibs out of her will? If so, then none of you should have anything further to do with her.
I recall a therapist telling me that you can divide the entire world into two lines. Line one is for those who believe they are responsible for EVERYTHING and line two is for those who believe they are responsible for NOTHING.
Truth is that we can do very little to, for, or about ANYONE else unless we are the POA and the other person is diagnosed as incompetent. And even then it is difficult.
And yes, in order to take the license from someone the law needs to be involved.
I wish you good luck with a rational conversation here with your elder.
Mom is 89 and wants to move. Tell sis to let her do whatever she wants but sis is not going help her. That means Mom gets the realtor, she finds herself a new house and she packs up and finds someone to move her.
What you and sis need to realize is at 89 Mom needs you more than you need her. As adults you do not need to put up with her abuse. You can hang up, walk away. There needs to be mutual respect and there won't be until you stand up to her. You do nothing you don't want to do. What is she going to do to you.
Let your mother fend for herself. A very wise social worker told me sometimes you have to "let them fail". Many of us have had to do just that and when an emergency arises let the authorities, doctors etc handle it.
Given your history, If I was you I would not be POA for your mother either. Let the county/state whomever become your mother's guardian when the time comes.
As far as your sister. You should encourage her to seek respite from this situation , either temporarily or permanently as needed.
You are right - you can't tell them anything. There is little that you can do. At least in regards to them. You can change what you do. You can remove yourself from the situation as much as you are comfortable with. You can at the very least - mentally protect yourself.
IF they are mentally competent - outside of the narcissism - there is very little that you can do. And believe me - the narcissism can seriously mimic mental capacity issues - because if they are true narcissists - that is a Cluster B personality disorder on the DSM-5 - it actually IS on some level about compromised components of capacity. Just not in the way we normally think about capacity.
They don't have compromised memory - but they DO live in a different reality - and will change the narrative to fit their needs and will "remember" things differently than you do.
They don't have compromised decision making capacity. But they will make very poor choices in order to get their needs met and get things what they want. And it will often appear as if their capacity to make choices is seriously compromised because they don't seem to consider the consequences.
They don't have compromised ability to discern between fact and fiction. They KNOW what is real and what is not. They do not hallucinate. But they do have delusions. Typically of grandeur. But if they are covert - they have other types of delusions. and they don't live in our reality. They live in one of their own creation.
So it is VERY easy - especially when narcissists age - to confuse the narcissism for dementia. And not be able to tell the difference. And wonder about their capacity. And it is even worse when they have dementia AND narcissism.
As long as they have capacity - they are allowed to make whatever stupid choices they want. Just like the rest of us. Unfortunately a lot of their stupid choices are way up there on the scale because they don't ever consider how their choices impact anyone else. Because no one else matters!
My best advice. Pick your battles.
On the license issue. You are going to run into a brick wall with them. They are NEVER going to believe they should stop. My FIL literally cannot walk, see, hear, can barely even move his arms anymore, can barely even get in the car, and when he does he needs help getting in and someone to put his seatbelt on. But he still thinks he can drive (he doesn't by the way)
You don't mention why you think they should stop driving. Are they having accidents? Driving erratically? Why do you think they should stop driving? If they are a danger - a genuine danger - there are ways to anonymously get involved via the Department of Motor Vehicles and their primary care doctor. There are ways you can disable their vehicle. But none of these should be done if they aren't really causing any real problems and you just think they are too old to drive.
None of us have the power within us to change anyone else’s behavior.
It’s frustrating to be in a situation like this. I’m sorry that you have an unreasonable mother.
Hey, consider yourself lucky that you live across the country from your mom. Good for you! Your sister is the one dealing with it. Please share this site with her. I’m sure that she would love to vent about your mom for a bit.
Best wishes to you and your family.