Hi all,
I'm new here. I've helped care for my grandparents in some capacity since 2011. After my grandpa passed in early 2021, my Grandma moved to an independent living facility which offered a'la carte care services and packages. She did well independently for 1 year and then I knew she was needing more assistance. I had already been checking in on her daily, helping her shower and do her laundry. She willingly came with me to my house and I demanded that her stepsons arrange for more care because it was unsafe for her to continue living independently without assistance (2 are POAs) This is what brings me to the root problem of a very complex situation.... mental illness. One POA has tried to kill himself twice and the other was huffing nitrous oxide to self treat his undiagnosed mental illness. Grandma is 98 and very mobile. She does have mild to moderate dementia, but has not been declared incompetent. Her POAs are not making decisions in her best interest - they assume she die because "They have their own lives" and anything she needs is just far too much trouble. They neglected her dentures, doctor visits and glasses because "She can't see anyway" Wont allow her to have physical therapy. She has money to care for herself.... they stand to benefit financially from her estate. I visit grandma 3-5 times a week, do her shopping and overall make sure she is happy and cared for. The stepsons would love nothing more to keep me away and my involvement to a minimum only when it benefits them.... because I do too much good for grandma and help her thrive. Has anyone else dealt with such dysfunction?
There are 2 paths:
1) you pursue guardianship for her through the courts.
2) you report her to APS and let the county come to the conclusion that her PoAs are unsuitable, and the county acquires guardianship.
Which do you think is the solution you wish to pursue?
I am considering pursuing guardianship.
I'd be interested to see the wording on them.
Another option is to think about if you think she can be considered competent by an attorney. If so, then she can assign POA to anyone she wants, including you. She doesn't have to tell the stepsons they're out, but the person with the most recently signed POA gets the job.
Michigan Durable Power of Attorney for Health Care
I (name removed), appoint the person(s) named on the following list as my Attorney(s)-in-Fact (my "Agent" or Co-Agents, as the case may be; and, unless the context indicates otherwise, any reference to my Agent herein shall all refer to any Co-Agent). My Patient Advocates may act jointly, and each of them may act individually as my Patient Advocate.
A Patient Advocate may delegate his or her powers to the other Patient Advocate if he or she is unable to act.
My Patient Advocate(s) may only act if I am unable to participate in making decisions regarding my medical treatment.
INSTRUCTIONS FOR CARE
1. GENERAL INSTRUCTIONS
My Patient Advocate shall have the authority to make all decisions and to take all actions regarding my care, custody and medical treatment including, but not limited to the following:
a. Have access to, obtain copies of and authorize release of my medical and other personal information.
b. Employ and discharge physicians, nurses, therapists, and all other health care providers, and arrange to pay them reasonable compensation.
c. Consent to, refuse, or withdraw for me any medical care; diagnostic, surgical, or therapeutic procedure; or other treatment of any type or nature, including life-sustaining treatments. I understand that life-sustaining treatment includes, but is not limited to breathing with the use of a machine and receiving food, water and other liquids through tubes. I also understand that these decisions could or would allow me to die. I have listed below and specific instructions I have related to life-sustaining treatments.
a. Specific instructions regarding Care I Do Want - BLANK
b. Specific instructions regarding Care I Do Not Want - BLANK
c. Specific instructions regarding Life-Sustaining Treatment
I do not want my life to be prolonged by providing or continuing life-sustaining treatment if any of the following conditions exist:
I am in an irreversible coma or persistent vegetative state.
I am terminally ill and life-sustaining procedures would serve only to artificially delay my death.
Under any circumstances where my medical condition is such that the burdens of the treatment outweigh the expected benefits. In weighing the burdens and benefits of treatment, I want my Patient Advocate to consider the relief of suffering and the quality of my life as well as the extent of possibly prolonging my life.
I understand that this decision could or would allow me to die.
d. Specific instructions Regarding Medical Examinations - BLANK
This document is to be treated as a Durable Power of Attorney for Health Care and shall survive my disability or incapacity.
If I am unable to participate in making decisions for my care and there is no Patient Advocate or successor Patient Advocate able to act for me, I request that the instructions I have given in this document be followed and that this be treated as conclusive evidence of my wishes.
In fact, you and your grandmother should go down to the probate court in the twon she lives in and make a petition for conservatorship which is even higher than POA.
Your grandmother can actually name you her conservator in court and you would take things over from there.
You will need to bring a lawyer into it though. Yes it's a giant waste of money but unfortunately it is a necessary evil with conservatorship claims.
The lawyer will take care of everything though.
One question though. Is the POA even active now? Your uncles may not even be acting legally. From what you say they are neglecting her needs and not acting in her best interests. Dentures are certainly an important need.
Don't even concern yourself with their supposed mental illnesses or mental incompetence. They're grown men. It's for them to seek out some mental health care. If they are spending your grandmother's money and not taking care of their duties as POA, criminal charges can be brought against them and should be.
This would be something you tell the lawyer you hire and he will explain this to the judge when it's time to go for the conservatorship hearing.
Make an appointment with a lawyer. You will have to bring your grandmother to it because he will be representing her. The first consultation is usually free. I would strongly suggest you do this.
So much here depends on the competency of the grandmother. This would be easy through an attorney if she is competent enough to name granddaughter guardian.
Huffing nitrous isn't going to get a POA taken from anyone. And the only way you could take ANY kind of action would be to ask that the record keeping of the POAs be examined.
This is a court action you would have to do through an attorney. I suspect these gentlemen have meticulous records, your grandmother is in care and has made it to 98. NO ONE is going to question these gentlemen after that. But I can tell you what COULD happen if you did such a thing..........................................
They could prevent you from ever seeing your grandmother again!
You grandmother is 98. She will soon die whether that is what anyone wishes or not.
Do you want her last years to be without the comfort of you and your caregiving and checking on her and companionship and help?
No.
You don't want that.
The best thing you can do now, after all this time, with your grandmother in good care, is to continue on doing exactly what you are doing, offer help and encouragement to the huffers, and be the sweet and loving companion to your grandmother that you are. And blessings upon you for your love of her, for your kindness to her. She's so lucky to have your love.
Can you make clear to me whether your grandmother is still living in independent living, or is she living in care.
OR is she living with YOU?
If she is living with YOU and she is able to make her wishes known, then she is not incompetent and an attorney can change her POA to you, or even get you guardianship.
If she is incompetent and diagnosed as such that's a different matter in court. But a senior well enough to say who she is currently living with, who cares for her, and where she wishes to live would be in court allowed to make her decisions unless the POA boys can prove her incompetence in court.
Do know a court action that is fought, and the boys surely will do that with her money, could run to 10,000 quite readily.
Much here depends upon your grandmothers mentation and diagnosis and on her stated wishes where she would like to live, and your willingness to take on 24/7 care or not.
Also, I am so confused about the POA you posted below in response to another poster. It is a DPOA for HEALTH care ONLY. That isn't going to allow anyone to pay bills. Not at all. It isn't going to allow anyone to be involved in placement or bills or finances or anything else. It is only for health care decisions.
Are these boys her FINANCIAL POAs as well?
And she is leaving all her money to her STEPsons, not to her own blood.
Wow, what a complicated case this one is.
Again, is grandmother diagnosed as so demented as to be INCOMPETENT in her own wishes.
Granddaughter, last word on this one is
SEE AN ATTORNEY, either Trust and Estate or Elder, and preferrably the latter, especially if the grandmother is currently living with YOU.
Thanks for your response.
Grandma is living in an independent living facility, but now with added on care. Folks can live there without any assistance and when they need help, even if it's a simple medication reminder, that can be added, or a care package that includes many things. My grandma has a care package that costs her $99/day. I had to raise all kinds of hell with her stepsons and not allow her back to her facility to get her this care a year and a half ago. Could she have arranged her own care, sure, but you know the elder themselves is not going to acknowledge they need help and because no one else is around, I noticed that she was needing assistance. The stepsons let her not take medication properly or at all for several months leading up to this.
Let me clarify about the incompetent part. I am by no means a subject matter expert. The way I understand is that a COURT must declare someone incompetent- That has not been done. Has a doctor declared her incompetent- that I do not know and if so how much power that gives.
Two stepsons are her medical and financial POAs. She has a living Trust that was drawn up when my grandpa was still living. The three stepsons stand to inherit the majority of her estate. She had no children of her own.
No doubt very complicated - particularly with the dysfunctional players involved. My concern is that things will only get worse, so I'm working on developing a plan, learning from others experience here, and advocating for my grandma who deserves to be safe, happy and cared for.
I would see an attorney with her if she wishes it.
Otherwise I would continue on with visits and providing support you can while she lives.
You have complications here of children and grandchildren from seperate marriages, and uncertainty as to competency, inability to discuss things with the Financial and Medical POA, so no knowledge.
Just leave it, visit, support her, and leave it be.
My grandma is afraid of them and what they are capable of doing with her and her money (fear of moving, etc) They almost always treated her poorly. When she had COVID the stepsons said she would die (She clearly did not and I cared for her in my home while she was sick while also sick alongside her)
My grandma has clear days and not so clear days, she is not 100% all of the time. There is a camera in her apartment, so any discussions we do have are outside of her apartment. In September while she was in the hospital she was worried about what was happening with her money asking me if it would be coming to me, etc.
I don't want to upset her, so I go about business as usual while visiting. She has a fragile mild along with confusion some days. I am not opposed to trying to talk to her about this, but I don't want her to be scared for her remaining days. I would 100% welcome her into my own home and care for her with caregiver assistance, but she does like where she lives AND her stepsons would never allow that to happen. They'd move her across the state away from all family before they would let me care for her.
Welcome and thank you for your reply. I certainly understand the difficultly and complexity mental illness can add in family matters. I'm glad you were able to carry out your fathers wishes and get added to make decisions on his behalf. Unfortunately in my case, If I could do this without issue, I would have done so months ago. The stepsons would challenge it and I'd be right back where I was, maybe worse actually.
It's sad really, everything I do has to be so thought out. The amount of time I spend trying to outsmart them on the simplest matter is sickening. So the real serious matters, I hold my cards very close until I am ready to act.
Thanks for your reply. My grandpa's first wife died of cancer at a young age. He remarried the grandma I mention. The three stepsons are my grandpas children from first marriage (my dad being one of them) The documents and Trust were drawn up without any knowledge of mental illness, huffing, attempting suicide the 2 POAs (stepsons) have displayed. I'm not indicating that weighs in my favor necessarily, but trying to paint the picture that YES, my grandparents signed on the dotted lined, but had no knowledge of the mental heath issues their (step)sons had.
Them playing nice is impossible - they would love me out of the picture and her to be dead years ago. Purely loveless business.
**Bounce got it 100% right in a reply that I will copy/paste below --**
I'm thinking it's likely their father had the DPOA drawn up before his death in 2021 and it wasn't a situation where your grandma specifically chose or wanted them to care for her.
With an estate of significance it likely made logical sense to him that HIS sons (the heirs) would naturally be POA for her if he were to pass before she did.
I dropped off planet earth, and I've been ever consumed with nonstop chaos and trying to advocate for my grandma. Over the last couple months, things went from bad, to worse.
My whole story is quite a long one if you've followed from the beginning, with so much complexity. My grandma was sitting at her dining table chair and was reaching for a napkin on the floor, she tumbled over and smacked her head on the wall and had a good skin tear on her leg from it hitting the table legs. I saw her fall on the camera in her apartment and got her help. She was hospitalized for 5 days all of which I was by her side daily ordering her meals and making sure she was getting good care. Her stepsons were no where to be found, yet they wanted to control everything.... they couldn't even as much inconvenience themselves to pick her up at the hospital. So, at discharge, they got wind of hospice service.... of course totally sold on it because they already do very little for my grandma, but now she'll have a visiting nurse and they no longer have to worry about ordering and stocking her medications. It's always about their convenience and how can they pawn all responsibility on someone else.
They manage to get her evaluated and on hospice service. I monitored every move of hospice based on what I see on the camera. Logging her vitals on a calendar, who was there, how long they were there, etc. Literally perfect vitals every time they would come for all of 10 minutes 1-2 times a week. The RNs even left her leg wound bandage unchanged for 3 weeks. Meanwhile the stepsons could careless, hospice can do no wrong. I even WATCHED a RN with another in training go up to my grandmas leg bandage and say "Do you want me to touch this?" Then instructed the nurse in training, see, that's how we do it, now we mark it as patient refused." UNBELIEVABLE
I'm very anti-hospice based on the poor care I witnessed and what seems to be downright fraud.... where were they documenting decline.... there really wasn't any... were they falsifying records?! So now, because I call them out, I learn my grandma is labeled as a sign-off risk and they have social workers come educate the family as damage control. All throughout, my grandma doesn't really know she's on hospice.
Fast forward a bit, the stepsons take away my camera, install their own, instruct the independent living facility to lock my grandma in her room and keep me away. The facility says no, this is independent living and we welcome visitors, the granddaughter isn't doing anything wrong. Stepsons don't like that response and want to keep me and my influence away, so they have the facility change the locks. They also took her mail key away and were witholding mail, instructing the office only they could borrow the spare key. Then they tell me, my grandma is not allowed to leave the building. They want her locked in her room, isolated.
They also took her checkbook under the guise of checks were stolen to cover their butts. (There were no checks stolen They are screwing me out of money as I've done all shopping for my grandma for years. I get one reimbursement check that's short money and guess what, it's from the same bank account they lied about closing due to stolen checks.
I did take all of your advice and consult with an elder law attorney. Contested guardianship required a $7500 retainer and in reality it would be many multiples of that. The attorney told me the stepbrothers could use her money to defend themselves because they have access to it. CRAZY! It would take 4-6 weeks for a hearing because this would not be considered an emergency. Ultimately I decided that was not the best course of action.
Fast forward another month, they did a sneak attack on my grandma, sent her to the dining room, brought in movers to tear apart and pack her apartment and moved her to a location unknown to me.
It's sick and pure evil!