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She's retired and doesn't need the money. She wants him to live with her and says how much it would cost if he was in an assisted living facility. He is very healthy and active and needs no assistance with daily activities but has increasing dementia. The siblings are split on whether she should be paid to let Dad live her.

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She should be paid. Dad's needs will increase. Does the doc say dad needs care? Look around at memory care, find one and have his level of care assessed. Whether she needs the money or not does not factor into the decision. What about room and board?

There must be a care agreement in place. An elder law attorney can prepare it. Dad would become an employer, all taxes and other withholding is out of her payment and dad pays his portion.

Inheritance lost to cost of care is often the reason that sibs do not agree with paying for care to a sibling. This happened in my case which ended up in court, costing more in attorneys and inheritance. I won, and was paid for two years of care and going forward. Dad's assets are for his care and does not become inheritance until after dad passes.

Do it legally, if you do not, any payment to sis is considered gifting and would impact dad's eligibility for Medicaid should be ever need it.
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Doesn't you dad deserve the dignity of paying his own way?

At the very least, your sister is giving up her privacy. If your dad can no longer live alone, he needs some level of supervision, housekeeping and board. Utilities will increase and your sister will be faced with living with someone who wants the house kept warmer than she likes.

Dad's care needs will increase.

Set up a caregiving contract with a lawyer, have taxes taken out and make this all legal so that Medicaid, if needed, doesn't see it as gifting.

This should be an agreement between dad and your sister. Not sure why the other siblings think they should have anything to say about it.
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My FIL is also physically healthy apart from the dementia. But I agree with the others, she should be paid. One idea is to work with her to come up with a sliding scale - start with one amount and increase as his care warrants becomes more time consuming.

When my FIL’s dementia was mild to moderate, it still required cooking, cleaning, handling his bills, doctor appointments, medication, and constant supervision. Now that it’s severe it is a lot more work, supervision, and stress.

If you have never gone through it, you may not realize how much it takes. Read through this board a bit and what people are dealing with, not only physically but emotionally.

Do any of the other siblings want to take care of him without compensation? Have they stepped up?
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Allwalls Mar 2021
I actually just lived with him for three months since we didn't want to bring him home in the winter and it never crossed my mind to ask him to pay me to do that. It was exhausting! I just hope she has some clue what she's getting into!
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Should possibly clarify scope of 'paid' :-
1] shared utilities and services, food and personal needs, transport (fuel), and damage to property are all reasonable 'payments' to expect;
2] being paid for personal attention (time and assistance) is not in the spirit of caring for a family member, yet this is the very high price the caregiver pays indirectly through self sacrifice - worthy of consideration and recognition, and perhaps a little more faith and support from family members?
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And please make sure that several werks of "respite" where another family member takes dad or where dad goes to a care home for a week or 10 days is built into the plan.

Just to note, no deal saying "you'll get your inheritance when dad dies or dad will leave you the house. Unless the family has generational wealth, there will be nothing left after elder is in a facility at the end, paid for my Medicaid.
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I agree she should be paid:

1) non-professional, inexperienced caregivers never understand the full scope (and impact) of what they are signing up for (see topic: Burnout on this forum). It often takes a huge toll on them emotionally, mentally, financially and socially (and unfortunately familialy).

2) unless your dad in independently wealthy, there is a good chance (if his dementia gets to the point of his PoA deciding he needs facility care) then he will most likely need Medicaid to pay for it. The application "look-back" in some states can be as long as 5 years (like in my state) the minimum is 2.5 years. There can be no appearance of "gifting" of money, assets or property. There will need to be a legal written contract between the sister and the dad, just for good measure. This also brings clarity and transparency to the rest of the family. No one in the family should be paying for any of his care-related needs. It will eventually break their bank accounts.

3) I also agree on grounds of his personal dignity and sense of control.

Your sister should read some of the Burnout posts on this forum. These stories are not the exception, they are mostly the rule when well-meaning but idealistic adult children go into the caregiving arrangement. The LO usually declines, and often faster than expected. It's just advisable she (and the family) go into this with all their eyes wide open. Paying for his care will be the least of the issues as his dementia marches on. I wish you all much wisdom and peace in your hearts.
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Why not have all the siblings pitch in? Even if agre doesn't need it. Honestly, it's on her if she feels she should get paid. I work full time and my mother just had a stroke. I will be caring for her but will not have an income and I'm the provider for a family of 4. I have no choice but to find a way to get paid to care for her. But if I was financially set, I would repay the Grace to my mother without pay. She deserves that and more.
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Pet peeve here. How do you know she doesn't need the money. I hate when people assume I have money. And this is from those people who made more than me and my husband made together. Sister is now retired. Her income is not what it was. SS is based on 35 years of steady income. Does she have a pension, one of the lucky ones if she does.

Your Dad receives SS at least. That should be used for his care. Better u set it up as rent than paying her as a caregiver. Anything he needs personally should be paid by him. This is even special food he likes but the rest of the family doesn't eat. Sister should not have any out of pocket expenses. She should total her expenses, taxes, utilities, house insurance ect and split it by the number of people living in the house. Thats Dads share. Now this can be adjusted according to his other needs that he should be paying for. His other kids should pitch in if he needs something he can't afford. Sis is doing the caring. Her future should not be jeopardized because she volunteered to do this.

I am all for a parent paying their way if they have the money. Its not fair that one child does all the work and the others reap the rewards. Taking care of a person with Dementia is not easy. Its like caring for a big toddler. Sis is going to need breaks and support.

Seeing a lawyer and having a contract written up is a good thing if Medicaid is ever needed. Also, he/she will be able to tell you how much out of Dads income should go to his care. Any bills Dad has should be paid out of his checking account. This is the best record you could have. If sister needs reimbursement, a check is written and the receipts saved. If there are any large expenditures, note it on the statement and attach the bill. This way when Medicaid looks back on 5 years of statements you don't have to remember what was put out.

If Dad has a home, sell it. Has to be sold at Market Value. Put the proceeds in the bank for his future care. None of it can be given as gifts. Only can be used for his care. Houses can be an Albatross around the neck.
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Some additional information : his home was sold. He has been in his condo in FL but we couldn't find full time care givers in his area and he's agreed to come back to Michigan. He says he's too old to decide where to live. He's 93. Most siblings didn't think him living with my sister will work, but she wanted to try it so bad, we said she could try it. He'll pay for care givers to come in. My other sister has handled his finances, medications, taxes, insurance, etc. and not asked to be paid. So they feel he would basically be paying her to let him live there even though it's what she is asking be done. And she herself said she doesn't need the money. Hope this extra info helps.
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I agree she should be paid. Whether retired or not. Whether he is still capable or not. Dealing with someone with dementia is stressful and the work load is doubled. Who is doing the extra cooking, cleaning, etc. Just worrying about the other person in your home is stressful. Taking on a parent is not a light decision to make, because it is not an easy task. Really consider what you are doing. If the siblings are split on the decision, and do not want to pay, then maybe one of them should take him in for free.
Actually all the siblings should be grateful to her for wanting to do this.

As Geatton says in her reply:
non-professional, inexperienced caregivers never understand the full scope (and impact) of what they are signing up for (see topic: Burnout on this forum). It often takes a huge toll on them emotionally, mentally, financially and socially (and unfortunately familialy).
I made the decision to take on both my parents, and what Geatton has said is exactly what I am experiencing now.

I wish I had known about his forum before agreeing to take in my parents.
I love them dearly, but OMG.
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Thats for the update.

So if she doesn't need the money, I don't see the problem. No, she should not be out of pocket in anyway. Dad should fully pay his own way. Hiring Caregivers won't be cheap and he should be paying that cost. But if she is being paid then so should the other sister be paid. What she does in time consuming.

None of you siblings should pay her out of your own pockets. If she is addimate about being paid, then maybe Dad should just go to an AL. He will have socialization, activities and entertainment. If he has the money, use it.
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Allwalls Mar 2021
She feels seeing one of his "girls" every day is more important than socializing with strangers which he isn't likely to do anyway. I have to agree that many assisted living places have few activities that men actually enjoy! His favorite past time was mowing his lawn. Harder to do at 93.
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He should pay some kind of rent at the very least.
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You are absolutely insane if you bring him from FL to MI. We have really strict and insane elder laws, Gretch just gave caregivers another $2.25 raise and we lead the country in false elder abuse arrests.

My advice, do not let him come here. Have sis go to FL.
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Allwalls Mar 2021
It was his decision to come back to Michigan since has no family in FL and no one that would move there. We offered to find him an assisted living facility in FL, but he chose to come home. That will probably change when the weather starts turning colder!
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Talking with an Elder care attorney is great advice. She's already talking about caregivers coming in daily but I think they want to be paid in cash. I'm reading that this can be a problem.
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gladimhere Mar 2021
Do not pay in cash, under the table, it can create a multitude of problems.
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Here is my take. She does NOT need the money but she is taking on a monumental task taking care of an old parent. I can assure you if he has dementia, it will soon be hell having him around and tending to him. She has no idea what she is in for. Her life will be hell with that situation. Perhaps she does not realize this. Given that she is willing (for now) to do this, then she should be paid OUT OF HIS FUNDS ONLY. No other siblings should pay her - he should provide the funds for taking care of him with dementia. She will earn it, I guarantee you.
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Increasing dementia is very difficult to live with and ones needs change daily.
sometimes the person seems ok and will not accept they have dementia, which also causes problems. As they can be confrontational, if you feel they should have support.
A scan detects the type of Dementia and how it will progress .
it’s difficult to make decisions on loved ones.
Does anyone have Power of Attorney?
if your father moves, then your relatives cannot cope that’s another upheaval.
Perhaps you need an assessment and a meeting with other professionals?
Thanks
Melody
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Allwalls Mar 2021
I have POA. He has seen a neurologist but no scan was done, although that was over a year ago. We'll make another appt once he's back in Michigan. So far, he's pleasant and knows he's forgetful, but I know things will only get harder.
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I always think it’s wise to have a couple of power of attorneys in the family.
As it appears that your Father will need other carers coming in but your sister will oversee his weekly costs, rent , food and Utilities, the question is merely, what costs she is expecting for doing such things. ? I think advice needs to come from a lawyer, from the care sector.
Here in the UK we have help the aged, The dementia and Alzheimer’s society. Etc. Everyone needs to agree and feel comfortable with arrangements and agreements.
Thanks Melody.
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I have to say I sympathize with the question. It's pretty insulting to know your parents took you in, then you want to get paid. IF she needed it then it's a different story. Maybe she feels that since your not taking him, she should be compensated, I don't agree but she will need help support in one way or another.
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I am a firm believer in people paying their way in life.

Dad should be paying room and board. There should be a rental or care giver contract drawn up and your sister should have POA over health and finances if he lives with her.

Increasing dementia means at some point sooner thna later Dad will take over your sister's life. She will not be able to leave him alone.
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Allwalls - please, please, your sister doesn't know what she is getting herself into. Please implore her to come to this forum and look around. She will find countless posts from people who terribly REGRET ever taking in a parent to take care of. Her life will become hell.

If you have any love for her, please send her to this forum. It might save her from losing the life as she knows it.

NO amount of compensation will be enough.
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It depends on what you mean by "paid to let Dad live with her."

Bringing an adult into your household inevitably increases costs: food, obviously, but also utilities, wear and tear, toiletries and laundry; as well as fringe extras such as different t.v. channels - they may look like negligible amounts individually but when you add them up...

Bringing an elder who is developing dementia into your household will also add significant new costs - triple that laundry bill, for a start, then factor in continence care, equipment and adaptations, caregiving and domestic services; and in a state with cold winters and hot summers, you're also going to spend a heck of a lot more on heating and air conditioning.

The difference between your sister's baseline budget and what the household budget will become when your father is part of the household should certainly be borne by your father. That's what it costs to keep him.

Then there is the matter of what her personal commitment to this project is worth, and that's where it gets tricky. Okay, she's retired, so she's not directly losing income from employment; but those are years of her life she will be giving up to his care. How do you recognise their value? Of *course* money doesn't cover it - "a cynic is a man who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing" - but it's a start. I think the siblings will find that it pays to be generous.
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shuffle Mar 2021
wow Countrymouse you have stated everything, everything, I am facing now with having taken in both my parents. You are correct in everything you have said in your post, it is spot on.
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Allwalls, how far advanced is your father's dementia? I remember that you explained he himself feels that he's too old and tired to be making these major decisions; but nevertheless his wishes come first, and if you and the majority of the family believe that he has strong reservations about living with your sister you should back him up on it.

Money doesn't seem to be the main object, is that correct? - and this isn't about the money. There are many strong arguments against 24/7 care being provided in a family home regardless of funding, not least that your sister can't possibly know what she's taking on and may be being a bit sentimental about this. If your father too is apprehensive about committing himself to her care, that does change the picture.

I'm sorry, I realise this kind of takes you all back to square one!
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Being retired has no bearing on whether or not she should be compensated. Caring for someone with dementia 24/7 is incredibly difficult and the stress can take years off one’s life. But that isn’t why she should be compensated either. She should be compensated because her life will essentially stop and she is providing a valuable service. If you folks don’t agree then perhaps one of the other sibs want to do the 24/7 thing and see how that works out for them.
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Frances73 Mar 2021
Amen! My mother was in AL and supervising all her needs still took up a lot of time each week.
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Of course she should be paid in my private opinion. If not, why not take on this duty yourself since you feel that your father with dementia would require almost o care. Or better still, have him go to ALF and pay the at least minimal fee of 5,000 a month.
This money should come not from YOU, but from your Father's funds. She should make a careful care plan and pass the costs monthly past a lawyer. She should be POA for financial if she is willing, and she should/could be paid for this as well, or hire a Fiduciary yourself for upwards of 90.00 an hour. The money should be paid by Dad, and I would think he would do so happily to be in the care of family.
Very important that this is not seen as "gifting" and that it is well done, because he may need care institutionally in future and you don't want to ruin needs for Medicaid should that 5 year lookback need to take place.
I honestly cannot believe that a sibling willing to take on the care of an elder with dementia would have other siblings who think they should do this care for free. I can't imagine it. And anyone who thinks someone with dementia requires "no assistance" just isn't really thinking clearly. IMHO.
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gdaughter Mar 2021
absolutely my deer Alva! My sibling would not do anything to help our parents if she were in the same town, which is one of the reasons she no doubt left (her excuse was she doesn't like cold weather/winter). Our relationship has become very strained. SHe doesn't appreciate all that I do, and in fact when I nearly died last fall BLAMED me for not knowing I had high blood pressure which potentially contributed to a dissection of the aorta. I may not be paying rent, but I am on call 24/7, my sleep is often disturbed, I clean, cook several times a week (a bit less while recovering, but still doing shopping on line or ordering etc), pay the bills...until someone does it for others they have no idea what is involved. And it seems no matter how I try to scale back and due less (on orders from my MI aunt), I still get involved. In the past month or two dad had a spot on his hand and felt he needed to have it seen, wanted an appt with the MD. ANd for once I told him to make it HIMSELF. He's perfectly capable in doing many things, including making golf reservations....and he did it! It turned out he was referred to dermatology and last week he did have a Moh's procedure which I did not accompany him to to reduce MY stress...and yet when I looked on line to see if there were any updates, I discovered SOMEone in an undated note had prescribed a 2nd cholesterol medication for this father of mine who is going on 104. I wanted to know if the primary MD was aware of this, agreed with it, and the justification for it being his age, as well as history of reacting to medications, and no lab report indicating an exceptionally high reading. He came back with a sharply worded curt response that it was NEVER PRESCRIBED. And he also managed to get it removed from the record I could see. So I am always the advocate. I had asked another question since the derm. people sent him home with directions NOT to take aspirin which he does (low dose daily) and had to write him back to say I was asking about the ASPIRIN when he wrote back to say IT WAS NEVER PRESCRIBED a 2nd time, as if I am stupid or ignorant and can't read. Needless to say I am looking for another primary care person. We had someone wonderful but he departed the evil system.
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How do you know she doesn’t need the money?
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I am not being paid and believe me, one should be. The time and energy it takes...it takes a toll, slowly but surely. Is she also going to be his chef, laundress, escort, advocate, bookkeeper, maid? Dad could no doubt at least pay some rent and for his share of food. I consider my caregiving to be more than the exchange of rent considering I am basically on duty/call 24/7. On top of the fact that being a Type A personality and wanting to do my best it all caught up with me and as I have mentioned prior, I had undetected hypertension which contributed to a dissection of the aorta last fall. I was close to death from what they tell me, just lucky that I felt so awful I called 911. But I have scaled back in what I do around here as much as I want to resume things. Let the siblings take a turn and see if they don't think it is something that should be paid for. I would want the sister to establish a caregiver agreement so there are no disagreements later. A certified elder law attorney can help draw something up and guide you through options that will make the most sense for your dad's financial circumstances...
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This can be a difficult dilemma. On the one hand, caring for anybody with increasing dementia can be a tough job - and deserving of compensation. If he was in a total care facility, or even an assisted living facility. the cost is a bit prohibitive. She definitely deserves to be compensated for her increased costs - utilities, groceries, his medications, his supplies, gas money for his trips to doctors.. Compensation for these costs should come from dad's resources and not the rest of the family. I would suggest tracking his costs for a month or 2 and discuss how she could be compensated for these. If he has enough finances, then she might get an additional amount in form of "rent" for letting him "use" her home.
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Assisted Living can provide many things including 24/7 supervision, administration of medications, regular meals, medical supervision, laundry and housekeeping, and most importantly socialization with other residents of his own generation.

Check into fees, Assisted Living may not be as expensive as you think, and in my mind definitely worth the cost for what you get. How much does your sister expect to be paid for the same services? My mother was paying less than $4500 a month for all those services. That works out to about $6.65 an hour.

If it was me I would charge expect to be paid too. Until you have been the caretaker for an elderly person, especially one with dementia, you have no idea how time consuming it can be.
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She needs to be paid, full stop. Not only because all of her household costs will increase but also because her quality of life will deteriorate.

As his needs progress, her life will be consumed. The caregivers will have days and nights off, but she won't. Weekends away, if she can have them at all, will be canceled or cut short. No spontaneous day trips and no taking the day to hang out with friends; anything she does will require having the phone ringer turned all the way up in case of an inevitable fall.

She will lose all privacy. Not only will her dad live there but also a steady stream of caregivers, VNA nurses, physical therapists and occupational therapists will be marching through her house. No time for hobbies or time to visit with her own children/grandchildren. No private time to spend with her spouse. There will be no such thing as a moment to herself.

If he goes into the hospital, it will tie her up for that total time plus two or three days after while all of the f/u appointments are made, cancelled appointments rescheduled, new medications are filled, and new VNA RNs and therapy are lined up. Plus making all of the calls/texts to family members to keep them informed of every time they cough, sneeze or have a BM.

If every person who took in an elderly family member were reimbursed for their expenses and paid minimum wage for the actual number of hours they worked and were on call, the nations economy would be thriving.

Hell yeah, she should be paid and well.
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