Sister wants to be paid to have dad live with her. Any advice?

Your dad’s dementia will not stay as-is. Would you and your other siblings be willing to alternate care? So if you there are 4 of you, you would each have him for 3 months of the year? If your answer is “no,” gladly pay your sister! He can pay her himself from his Social Security. Think of it as rent and food if you must, but it is much, much more. I would be thrilled .

The bottom line is there will be another mouth to feed, not to mention prescription administration and custodial duties. If you had to hire someone for these services, it would not be free.

Your sister should be paid if there are funds to do so.  If this is such a walk in the park, why aren't one of the other siblings taking dad in?  Your sisters life will change.  If he has dementia, he needs help and he needs watched.  He isn't just a border...he will also need companionship. She will more than likely be cooking, cleaning and doing his laundry, making his dr's appointments and taking him there.  When he can no longer bathe himself of manage toileting, you all will need to hire someone to come in and assist with that.  She isn't going to be able to just leave him and take a day trip...her life will change.  As his dementia worsens, she won't even be able to go to the grocery without having him watched. 

I can only assume none of the other siblings have been the caregiver of someone with dementia or this question wouldn't be asked.  Not only should she be paid, but when dad passes, if there is still money left, she should get her fair share when it is equally split among the siblings.

If you and your siblings don't like the idea of sis getting compensated for changing her life and taking dad on, then send him to assisted living.

Adding to my comment, but addressing issues not part of the original question:

You mention his house being sold and a condo in FL. IF the assets from the house sale haven't been put safely aside, I would highly recommend setting up an irrevocable trust. Although I didn't realize it until later, one of the primary reasons the atty had us do this was to "protect" the assets for inheritance. That was NOT part of my plan, so I did not do as he suggested, which was to feed the funds needed for mom and MC through my account, not hers. That would impact MY income, but more importantly is that I feel if she has funds for her care, that should be used for her care. Despite HIS plan, the funds were well managed and even outlasted her. IF she had needed to go to a NH, I would have used her funds, so WE could choose the place, not Medicaid.

Condo in FL should be sold too, unless you and siblings could use it as a vacation place. I had to deal with mom's condo after we moved her to MC. THAT sucked down almost 2 years of my life, not counting the time I had to help when we took the car away! Clearing, cleaning and getting repairs done, paid for with her funds, but also paid for with my time! It was about 1.5 hrs away, but that pales in comparison to travel between MI and FL!!!

For sister managing dad's finances - if she's using his SS funds, she should become Rep Payee through SS. It wasn't hard to do, mom didn't go with me to the appt and the yearly accounting isn't bad (can be done online through your own SS account.) While it's easy to manage someone's primary account, including SS funds, legally we are required to do this. That's up to your sister. If SS ever questions it, she might have some fun explaining! Likelihood is low, but it still exists.

Sister who wants to take dad in, with compensation: she also needs to know that if this compensation increases her income enough, it will impact what she pays for Medicare. I found this out when we sold mom's condo. It was a Life Estate (something I would NOT recommend unless the person has a known condition and fairly certain time line, plus they can live in the place until or close to TOD. Her "share" wasn't that much, but it WAS enough to push her over the limit (about 88k), so Medicare jacked up her cost. In her case, it would revert back the next year as it was a one time hit, but if sister's income hits/exceeds that amount yearly while caring for him, she needs to know about this as well.

Another thought - while many think hiring help to keep an elder out of AL is less expensive, they need to do the math! I don't know the going rate for aides where you live, but using $20/hr daytime rates (the rate goes up for nights, overnights, weekends, holidays) and 8 hr/day, the monthly expense would be almost $4900.

Both my brothers were clueless about the cost of care. After we toured the first place, they both said "Gee, for that kind of money, I'll take her in!" They had NO clue what "taking her in" would entail. I knew better. There's no way I could physically care for her and also my place would not be a good fit. YB was still working, but presumably he could stop and do the care. OB isn't local, so he'd be on his own. My initial response was if you want to do this, fine, but you NEED to understand ALL the implications! Neither followed through, thankfully. Neither would have been a good choice.

On the flip side of math, mom's MC place was just over 8k. Yes, it is a lot, but divide by 30 days and then by 24 hrs, it's less than $12/hr. There are many costs associated with a facility that have to be covered, so she isn't "getting" 8k in care. Insurance, taxes, food, maintenance, staff for care, preparing food, cleaning, admin, etc. all add up!

She was well cared for, clean and fed, relatively happy. I would not change anything (except banish dementia!)

A few comments sound like some think you and the others are trying to get "free" care for him, but based on all that I have read, my take is that you and the siblings think your sister is going to be in over her head. Certainly she is welcome to give it a try, but have a backup plan ready. You are aware of how much it impacted you, but either she doesn't acknowledge that or thinks she can do better. Even the least difficult elder can be a monkey wrench when living with us full time. But, before embarking on this, your dad should be asked.

You've written:

"She wants him to live with her..."
"He says he's too old to decide where to live."

But, although he says that, has anyone directly asked his opinion about living with her? He should have a say in this too. 

You also indicated that "...he chose to come home.", so he CAN make some decisions. Assumption is he is living with you now? Has he any inkling that a move might be in his future? Has he voiced any opinions, if he is aware of your sister's plan?

If he's on board and she wishes to give this a whirl, then some kind of legal agreement about payments needs to be done. In addition, your sister needs to know the legal and financial implications involved in being paid, either for rent or care-giving. From what you've written, care-giving would be done by hiring others, and this should be paid from dad's income/assets. Under the table, big NO-NO! Payments need to be documented and saved, for tax and potential Medicaid assistance. Hiring people for "cash" begs problems. Are they claiming the income? Are they licensed and insured? Sister may scoff at this, but if/when this becomes a problem, it will impact more than just those "cash" people!

As for compensation, personally I would only want enough to cover the increase in my own costs. The house is mine, so I wouldn't ask my mother to pay for it. Utils and grocery will increase, so if she can estimate 3-6 months of current expenses, that can determine how much of an increase there is with him living there. If she has to transport him to appts, etc, that could be added to a monthly estimate, but unless he's really ill with many appts, that should be a minimal impact. If the laundry involves many more loads, some compensation for time to do this. Cooking, unless he requires a special diet, doesn't really impact us - just a little more food, already in the grocery cost increase.

Is it a mistake? There's no way to tell unless she tries this. Not all elders become cranky, difficult or need excessive care, at least not in the first few years. My mother was still living on her own into her early 90s. Dementia impacts were mainly driving, cooking and managing bills. Your dad is about the age mom was when we finally moved her to MC. I tried hiring aides, but she thwarted that in less than 2 months (1h/d only, with plans to increase if/when her needs increased.) She was still mostly self-reliant for several years after that - fully mobile, able to bathe and dress, feed herself, etc.

If your dad is still very healthy and able, this journey could last many years. Is she aware of that? Of course his needs will increase with time and age, but just having him in her home for MANY years can become tedious, esp if he becomes more needy or difficult.

JoAnn29 said:
"But if she is being paid then so should the other sister be paid. What she does in time consuming."

I would agree with JoAnn29's comment, but that is up to the sister who is doing the work. If it isn't complicated and she's happy doing it, so be it. I am now kicking myself that I didn't take compensation, but my tasks were much more complicated. If it were just managing her bills, no big deal. I was more concerned about ensuring there were enough funds to continue paying for her and the MC.

Have a backup plan for when sister discovers this isn't a cake walk. Squash the idea about hiring people for "cash", as that won't end well. Get a legal payment "agreement" done with EC atty.

She should receive compensation. We give up a lot to care for our loved ones. No one really knows what it is like until they have walked in our shoes.

My mom had a stroke (short term memory loss) and moved in with me five years ago. She sold her property at a discount to my brother (totally their business and between them), she gifted my sister what she wanted her to have (totally their business and between them), and I am the beneficiary on her insurance policy (totally our business and between us). I let my mom pay the difference in what my utility and grocery bills were before she moved in and what my bills are now (she pays $30 per month electric, $20 per month gas, $180 on groceries.....) because she said that it is not right for her not to contribute something. I let her contribute because that's what she wants to do. Our elders still need to feel relevant too. I cook and she likes to do the dishes. She can do her own laundry and enjoys it. I assist with her bath and make sure that she gets to all of her medical appointments (I complete all of the paperwork and keep up with her medications.) ensuring that she gets proper treatment. I do all of the shopping and run the household. This list is not all encompassing, but those of you who are caregivers get the picture. At times it feels like you are raising another child, but then you realize that it's the person who raised you. I love her with all my heart! I do find that I need to stay up after she goes to bed because I need time to decompress and just be alone. Not much privacy here now. The hardest part for me has been her trying to tell me what to do ALL THE TIME!!! 😂 I'm nearly 60! She does go to visit with my siblings all along in order to give us both a break.

The bottom line for me is that I know that our situation is not perfect, but we all communicate and make it work for our moms' sake. Your sister is going to be giving up a large part of her life. She deserves compensation and her siblings' support. Each sibling should put themself in her shoes.

*

She needs to be paid, full stop. Not only because all of her household costs will increase but also because her quality of life will deteriorate.

As his needs progress, her life will be consumed. The caregivers will have days and nights off, but she won't. Weekends away, if she can have them at all, will be canceled or cut short. No spontaneous day trips and no taking the day to hang out with friends; anything she does will require having the phone ringer turned all the way up in case of an inevitable fall.

She will lose all privacy. Not only will her dad live there but also a steady stream of caregivers, VNA nurses, physical therapists and occupational therapists will be marching through her house. No time for hobbies or time to visit with her own children/grandchildren. No private time to spend with her spouse. There will be no such thing as a moment to herself.

If he goes into the hospital, it will tie her up for that total time plus two or three days after while all of the f/u appointments are made, cancelled appointments rescheduled, new medications are filled, and new VNA RNs and therapy are lined up. Plus making all of the calls/texts to family members to keep them informed of every time they cough, sneeze or have a BM.

If every person who took in an elderly family member were reimbursed for their expenses and paid minimum wage for the actual number of hours they worked and were on call, the nations economy would be thriving.

Hell yeah, she should be paid and well.

Assisted Living can provide many things including 24/7 supervision, administration of medications, regular meals, medical supervision, laundry and housekeeping, and most importantly socialization with other residents of his own generation.

Check into fees, Assisted Living may not be as expensive as you think, and in my mind definitely worth the cost for what you get. How much does your sister expect to be paid for the same services? My mother was paying less than $4500 a month for all those services. That works out to about $6.65 an hour.

If it was me I would charge expect to be paid too. Until you have been the caretaker for an elderly person, especially one with dementia, you have no idea how time consuming it can be.

This can be a difficult dilemma. On the one hand, caring for anybody with increasing dementia can be a tough job - and deserving of compensation. If he was in a total care facility, or even an assisted living facility. the cost is a bit prohibitive. She definitely deserves to be compensated for her increased costs - utilities, groceries, his medications, his supplies, gas money for his trips to doctors.. Compensation for these costs should come from dad's resources and not the rest of the family. I would suggest tracking his costs for a month or 2 and discuss how she could be compensated for these. If he has enough finances, then she might get an additional amount in form of "rent" for letting him "use" her home.

I am not being paid and believe me, one should be. The time and energy it takes...it takes a toll, slowly but surely. Is she also going to be his chef, laundress, escort, advocate, bookkeeper, maid? Dad could no doubt at least pay some rent and for his share of food. I consider my caregiving to be more than the exchange of rent considering I am basically on duty/call 24/7. On top of the fact that being a Type A personality and wanting to do my best it all caught up with me and as I have mentioned prior, I had undetected hypertension which contributed to a dissection of the aorta last fall. I was close to death from what they tell me, just lucky that I felt so awful I called 911. But I have scaled back in what I do around here as much as I want to resume things. Let the siblings take a turn and see if they don't think it is something that should be paid for. I would want the sister to establish a caregiver agreement so there are no disagreements later. A certified elder law attorney can help draw something up and guide you through options that will make the most sense for your dad's financial circumstances...

How do you know she doesn’t need the money?

Of course she should be paid in my private opinion. If not, why not take on this duty yourself since you feel that your father with dementia would require almost o care. Or better still, have him go to ALF and pay the at least minimal fee of 5,000 a month.
This money should come not from YOU, but from your Father's funds. She should make a careful care plan and pass the costs monthly past a lawyer. She should be POA for financial if she is willing, and she should/could be paid for this as well, or hire a Fiduciary yourself for upwards of 90.00 an hour. The money should be paid by Dad, and I would think he would do so happily to be in the care of family.
Very important that this is not seen as "gifting" and that it is well done, because he may need care institutionally in future and you don't want to ruin needs for Medicaid should that 5 year lookback need to take place.
I honestly cannot believe that a sibling willing to take on the care of an elder with dementia would have other siblings who think they should do this care for free. I can't imagine it. And anyone who thinks someone with dementia requires "no assistance" just isn't really thinking clearly. IMHO.

Being retired has no bearing on whether or not she should be compensated. Caring for someone with dementia 24/7 is incredibly difficult and the stress can take years off one’s life. But that isn’t why she should be compensated either. She should be compensated because her life will essentially stop and she is providing a valuable service. If you folks don’t agree then perhaps one of the other sibs want to do the 24/7 thing and see how that works out for them.

edited

Allwalls, how far advanced is your father's dementia? I remember that you explained he himself feels that he's too old and tired to be making these major decisions; but nevertheless his wishes come first, and if you and the majority of the family believe that he has strong reservations about living with your sister you should back him up on it.

Money doesn't seem to be the main object, is that correct? - and this isn't about the money. There are many strong arguments against 24/7 care being provided in a family home regardless of funding, not least that your sister can't possibly know what she's taking on and may be being a bit sentimental about this. If your father too is apprehensive about committing himself to her care, that does change the picture.

I'm sorry, I realise this kind of takes you all back to square one!

It depends on what you mean by "paid to let Dad live with her."

Bringing an adult into your household inevitably increases costs: food, obviously, but also utilities, wear and tear, toiletries and laundry; as well as fringe extras such as different t.v. channels - they may look like negligible amounts individually but when you add them up...

Bringing an elder who is developing dementia into your household will also add significant new costs - triple that laundry bill, for a start, then factor in continence care, equipment and adaptations, caregiving and domestic services; and in a state with cold winters and hot summers, you're also going to spend a heck of a lot more on heating and air conditioning.

The difference between your sister's baseline budget and what the household budget will become when your father is part of the household should certainly be borne by your father. That's what it costs to keep him.

Then there is the matter of what her personal commitment to this project is worth, and that's where it gets tricky. Okay, she's retired, so she's not directly losing income from employment; but those are years of her life she will be giving up to his care. How do you recognise their value? Of *course* money doesn't cover it - "a cynic is a man who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing" - but it's a start. I think the siblings will find that it pays to be generous.

Allwalls - please, please, your sister doesn't know what she is getting herself into. Please implore her to come to this forum and look around. She will find countless posts from people who terribly REGRET ever taking in a parent to take care of. Her life will become hell.

If you have any love for her, please send her to this forum. It might save her from losing the life as she knows it.

NO amount of compensation will be enough.

I am a firm believer in people paying their way in life.

Dad should be paying room and board. There should be a rental or care giver contract drawn up and your sister should have POA over health and finances if he lives with her.

Increasing dementia means at some point sooner thna later Dad will take over your sister's life. She will not be able to leave him alone.

I have to say I sympathize with the question. It's pretty insulting to know your parents took you in, then you want to get paid. IF she needed it then it's a different story. Maybe she feels that since your not taking him, she should be compensated, I don't agree but she will need help support in one way or another.

I always think it’s wise to have a couple of power of attorneys in the family.
As it appears that your Father will need other carers coming in but your sister will oversee his weekly costs, rent , food and Utilities, the question is merely, what costs she is expecting for doing such things. ? I think advice needs to come from a lawyer, from the care sector.
Here in the UK we have help the aged, The dementia and Alzheimer’s society. Etc. Everyone needs to agree and feel comfortable with arrangements and agreements.
Thanks Melody.

Increasing dementia is very difficult to live with and ones needs change daily.
sometimes the person seems ok and will not accept they have dementia, which also causes problems. As they can be confrontational, if you feel they should have support.
A scan detects the type of Dementia and how it will progress .
it’s difficult to make decisions on loved ones.
Does anyone have Power of Attorney?
if your father moves, then your relatives cannot cope that’s another upheaval.
Perhaps you need an assessment and a meeting with other professionals?
Thanks
Melody

Here is my take. She does NOT need the money but she is taking on a monumental task taking care of an old parent. I can assure you if he has dementia, it will soon be hell having him around and tending to him. She has no idea what she is in for. Her life will be hell with that situation. Perhaps she does not realize this. Given that she is willing (for now) to do this, then she should be paid OUT OF HIS FUNDS ONLY. No other siblings should pay her - he should provide the funds for taking care of him with dementia. She will earn it, I guarantee you.

Talking with an Elder care attorney is great advice. She's already talking about caregivers coming in daily but I think they want to be paid in cash. I'm reading that this can be a problem.

You are absolutely insane if you bring him from FL to MI. We have really strict and insane elder laws, Gretch just gave caregivers another $2.25 raise and we lead the country in false elder abuse arrests.

My advice, do not let him come here. Have sis go to FL.

He should pay some kind of rent at the very least.

Thats for the update.

So if she doesn't need the money, I don't see the problem. No, she should not be out of pocket in anyway. Dad should fully pay his own way. Hiring Caregivers won't be cheap and he should be paying that cost. But if she is being paid then so should the other sister be paid. What she does in time consuming.

None of you siblings should pay her out of your own pockets. If she is addimate about being paid, then maybe Dad should just go to an AL. He will have socialization, activities and entertainment. If he has the money, use it.

I agree she should be paid. Whether retired or not. Whether he is still capable or not. Dealing with someone with dementia is stressful and the work load is doubled. Who is doing the extra cooking, cleaning, etc. Just worrying about the other person in your home is stressful. Taking on a parent is not a light decision to make, because it is not an easy task. Really consider what you are doing. If the siblings are split on the decision, and do not want to pay, then maybe one of them should take him in for free.
Actually all the siblings should be grateful to her for wanting to do this.

As Geatton says in her reply:
non-professional, inexperienced caregivers never understand the full scope (and impact) of what they are signing up for (see topic: Burnout on this forum). It often takes a huge toll on them emotionally, mentally, financially and socially (and unfortunately familialy).
I made the decision to take on both my parents, and what Geatton has said is exactly what I am experiencing now.

I wish I had known about his forum before agreeing to take in my parents.
I love them dearly, but OMG.

Some additional information : his home was sold. He has been in his condo in FL but we couldn't find full time care givers in his area and he's agreed to come back to Michigan. He says he's too old to decide where to live. He's 93. Most siblings didn't think him living with my sister will work, but she wanted to try it so bad, we said she could try it. He'll pay for care givers to come in. My other sister has handled his finances, medications, taxes, insurance, etc. and not asked to be paid. So they feel he would basically be paying her to let him live there even though it's what she is asking be done. And she herself said she doesn't need the money. Hope this extra info helps.

Pet peeve here. How do you know she doesn't need the money. I hate when people assume I have money. And this is from those people who made more than me and my husband made together. Sister is now retired. Her income is not what it was. SS is based on 35 years of steady income. Does she have a pension, one of the lucky ones if she does.

Your Dad receives SS at least. That should be used for his care. Better u set it up as rent than paying her as a caregiver. Anything he needs personally should be paid by him. This is even special food he likes but the rest of the family doesn't eat. Sister should not have any out of pocket expenses. She should total her expenses, taxes, utilities, house insurance ect and split it by the number of people living in the house. Thats Dads share. Now this can be adjusted according to his other needs that he should be paying for. His other kids should pitch in if he needs something he can't afford. Sis is doing the caring. Her future should not be jeopardized because she volunteered to do this.

I am all for a parent paying their way if they have the money. Its not fair that one child does all the work and the others reap the rewards. Taking care of a person with Dementia is not easy. Its like caring for a big toddler. Sis is going to need breaks and support.

Seeing a lawyer and having a contract written up is a good thing if Medicaid is ever needed. Also, he/she will be able to tell you how much out of Dads income should go to his care. Any bills Dad has should be paid out of his checking account. This is the best record you could have. If sister needs reimbursement, a check is written and the receipts saved. If there are any large expenditures, note it on the statement and attach the bill. This way when Medicaid looks back on 5 years of statements you don't have to remember what was put out.

If Dad has a home, sell it. Has to be sold at Market Value. Put the proceeds in the bank for his future care. None of it can be given as gifts. Only can be used for his care. Houses can be an Albatross around the neck.